OpenMandriva

Well it is a family: Mandriva Mageia ROSA Unity PCLOS. Brothers and sisters living together in perfect harmony - so it deserved som space of its own.

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proyvind
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby proyvind » 16 Apr 2013, 14:12

Woodguy2 wrote:
proyvind wrote:
What? Totally NO WAY! The idea of the association is for it to support the project, and since this is a community project, it simply doesn't own it, nor does ROSA own the association either for that matter either.
So with this, those who does the actual work on the distribution, gets to do this properly without corporate soap operas etc. getting in the way nor kill it.

The association is intended to be an independent entity, which while supports the project with infrastructure etc., does not own nor govern the project.
'If the association were to do so, then it would be no better oiff than the company and it's troubles over the years, it would actually be even worse;
they have no previous involvement in the distribution, no proper leadership or businiss competence nor experience which you'd at least would expect for the management of a company to have.

There is no sane reasons for that any association related group to have any greater say in matter they're neither involved in nor even cares about to conduct any discussions and decission making outside of it.

Personally I am what's left from a staff of >30 developers who worked full time on the distribution for the previous release, where *every* responsibility beyond purely packaging has been left for me to take on, which is a situation that's been rather crappy for what all the crap and fsckups that's been going.
If I hadn't stuck around and taken some initiative ad responsibility that noonne else did, the project would've been long dead by now, ad even despite that I've repeatedly asked people from associatio to take responsibility for tasks and try help supporting, they've never done a single thing of it so far.
You might get the idea of why I am not so pleased with people who's never even contributed or been of any help to the distribution whatsoever,now expecting to get to get special privilegies, with the idea of that they're now my boss...

If people are unable to see what's wrong with this, then I really dunno what to say.. :|


So, what it boils down to, it is your distro, Per, and the association is only there to provide you with toys to play with. Nice deal if you can find one, I suppose. Under that premise, yes, I see a BIG problem using the OpenMandriva name for the distro. I also see a big problem with getting much community support for it. Or much financial support. But hey, you obviously know what's best. I supported Mandriva with Powerpak subscriptions for years, but no way will I support this!

If you are unable to see what's wrong with this, then I really don't know what to say...

Huh?
I'm not claiming that it's *my* distro, but I do have issues with others that have no legitimate claims on the matter expecting to cease control over it.
I'm not totally alone on doing the distro, but the team is rather small currently, and it's really those who's part of that team and actually involved in doing the distro that needs to decide for and govern it.

I don't really grasp what you're getting at, care to explain why you think that people who's not involved with the distribution nor have ever contributed anything to, should enjoy special privilegies that the rest of us doesn't..?

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rolf
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 16 Apr 2013, 14:50

Jean Parpaillon, 13 April 2012 wrote: Hi,
(I don't have the time to register a new address on the mailists, but I
want to speak as member of the Open Source Community, not as a Mandriva
employee)

I totally agree with Per Oyvind point of view.
It is _huge_ mistake to believe that Mandriva company can take a
decision for Mandriva community. Believing that is playing a game
without knowing the rules. The rules are those of the open source world,
of the open world, of the today world. Mandriva company, like _every
other company, have passed through good and bad time, but I can say one
thing 100% sure: it would not be there without 100s of contributors.

As I have said to one of you some month ago, I see only one issue which
concerns the community and not the company: the community must provide
quickly one or several concrete projects for managing itself and without
waiting for company management bullshit. With such concrete project, if
the company refuse to give the key (build system, mandriva.org
domain, ...) to one of these project, _only then_ contributors can leave
the ship without regret. So, I think proposal should include:
- an organization (who represent what, how decisions are taken, like
every other organization: Debian, LibreOffice, Mozilla, etc)
- a long term vision and a Vision for the community (= a Manifest)
- how the project can federate the today sparsed sub-community of
Mandriva
- any other ?

So, I insist: if the question, for the company, is to know if we need
the community, this is just _wrong_, _arrogant_ and _destructing_.
The question must be: what is the best way of establishing a trustful,
hence fruitful relation between community and company ?

Every day passing is destroying this relation, and the company will be
destroyed with it.

Jean

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/128 ... a-doom.txt

I see it as Woodguy2 says. ISTM "OpenMandriva" was granted, not licensed, once the legal entity, the association, was established. Support in terms of infrastructure, such as servers, as personnel, such as Charles Schulz and Kate Lebedeff was provided.

Many contributors worked hard to build this and Per simply spits on all of it.

<MatthewDawkins>
<GuilhermeMoro>
<bero>
<southerncross__>
<Pulfer>
<denis_silakov>
<fedya>

The association has developers.

proyvind wrote:Personally I am what's left from a staff of >30 developers who worked full time on the distribution for the previous release, where *every* responsibility beyond purely packaging has been left for me to take on


Ergo, "cooker" should govern the distribution but only you are "cooker". You evade the hard questions and play dumb. At this time, I don't trust what you say. Perhaps it would be best if you left. I don't have a prediction that the OMA can succeed but it stands a better chance without your (virtually) unilateral disruption, IMO.

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viking60
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 16 Apr 2013, 17:25

I think you are forgetting that Per worked hard too - and probably has done the most. That does not compute well with the distro standing a better chance without Per Øyvind.
They all need to work on the distro.
Manjaro 64bit on the main box -Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz and nVidia Corporation GT200b [GeForce GTX 275] (rev a1. + Centos on the server - Arch on the laptop.
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rolf
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 16 Apr 2013, 19:32

I am forgetting nothing of the sort. What you seem to forget is that I've been following cooker since 2000 and OMA mailing list for the last year, since it started. I've simply come to the conclusion that Per is standing in the way of the remnants of the community that are attempting to build a new association. Per didn't create Linux, nor Mandriva. He can take his ball and go his own way. Already a lot of time has been wasted trying to accommodate his irrational behavior.
If you have as little regard for community as he, maybe the both of you can forge ahead, alone, together. :berserkf

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viking60
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 16 Apr 2013, 21:02

No need to fork: Rosa and Mageia are already finished.
People are to busy digging trenches and shooting at each other so I do not have all that high hopes for OMA. To many people who know it all and have the only valid opinion....

I have nothing against the Mandriva community and you are not the only one that has contributed over the years:
http://forum.mandriva.com/no/
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Urpmi
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Kategori:System
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Kategori:Konfigurasjon
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Installer_o ... rogramvare
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Kontrollsenter
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/index.php?t ... on=history

And your example on how to act within a community and how to regard it may be perfect to you but I will not necessarily follow neither your advice nor your example in this matter.

I get that you regard Mandriva as your baby and that you feel entitled (I even agree that you should be ) given your longtime contribution....The problem is that proyvind feels exactly the same. (Are you sure that you two are not related?)

Woodguy2 had almost convinced me before you forced me back to the trenches again:

The best thing for Mandriva would be that all hands worked on the distro - My opinion. The best thing for Mandriva is that provind is not working on Mandriva and basically shuts up - your opinion - shared by the association.
Can we disagree on that?
If not:

Where exactly is Tombstone? So we can have our duel at dawn.....

PS: And I do encourage people to continue to disagree with me - I respect it and find total agreement utterly boring... :A (personal advice can be left out of it though)
Manjaro 64bit on the main box -Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz and nVidia Corporation GT200b [GeForce GTX 275] (rev a1. + Centos on the server - Arch on the laptop.
"There are no stupid questions - Only stupid answers!"

proyvind
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Joined: 28 May 2012, 01:40

Re: OpenMandriva

Postby proyvind » 16 Apr 2013, 21:19

viking60 wrote:No need to fork: Rosa and Mageia are already finished.
People are to busy digging trenches and shooting at each other so I do not have all that high hopes for OMA. To many people who know it all and have the only valid opinion....

I have nothing against the Mandriva community and you are not the only one that has contributed over the years:
http://forum.mandriva.com/no/
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Urpmi
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Kategori:System
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Kategori:Konfigurasjon
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Installer_o ... rogramvare
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/Kontrollsenter
http://wiki.mandriva.com/no/index.php?t ... on=history

And your example on how to act within a community and how to regard it may be perfect to you but I will not necessarily follow neither your advice nor your example in this matter.

I get that you regard Mandriva as your baby and that you feel entitled (I even agree that you should be ) given your longtime contribution....The problem is that proyvind feels exactly the same. (Are you sure that you two are not related?)

Woodguy2 had almost convinced me before you forced me back to the trenches again:

The best thing for Mandriva would be that all hands worked on the distro - My opinion. The best thing for Mandriva is that provind is not working on Mandriva and basically shuts up - your opinion - shared by the association.
Can we disagree on that?
If not:

Where exactly is Tombstone? So we can have our duel at dawn.....

PS: And I do encourage people to continue to disagree with me - I respect it and find total agreement utterly boring... :A (personal advice can be left out of it though)

harrharr
spot on;)

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rolf
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 16 Apr 2013, 21:44

It is not "spot on". Nowhere do I say I am entitled to more than my opinion. You continue to mischaracterize me as a despot, as you don't have a logical rebuttal. I know, Per works a lot, which is his choice, and for which he's been paid. I only say, in my OPINION, he's the one who burned the bridges and there has been enough history that, by know, it might be best for him to look for other ways to spend his time.

The association has made all sorts of accommodations to not hamper his work and his ambitions, despite how he undermines its necessary roles. It isn't my call, I'm not part of the development of anything, but I am free to state my opinion, especially where so much misinformation is being spread by those with even less participation.

I regard Mandriva as nothing of my own. My involvement is nothing extraordinary but sufficient to give me grounds to rebut FUD, IMO. I have spent 13 years using it and supporting it, which gives me some insight. All I'm saying is, if you would discount my point of view, address my claims that I have paid attention and bring more to the table than your lame straw man insults.

For the tweet heads:

Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

  1. Person A has position X.
  2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
  3. Person B attacks position Y.
  4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

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viking60
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 16 Apr 2013, 21:55

@rolf I do not mean to characterize you as a despot. I may be hinting intolerance though because it is very hard to disagree with you without getting personal advice that translate go f- y..self.
Other than that taking out various descriptions and advices I think your posts are as valid as ever (as usual). I am going to read the rest of your post now.....
And that simply angers me :f so I am not going to comment
Manjaro 64bit on the main box -Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz and nVidia Corporation GT200b [GeForce GTX 275] (rev a1. + Centos on the server - Arch on the laptop.
"There are no stupid questions - Only stupid answers!"

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rolf
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 16 Apr 2013, 22:23

viking60, 5 April wrote:
proyvind wrote:Yeah, exactly, and the rebranding work really needs to be done ASAP, especially since Charles is pretty much giving me a takedown notice of any new release which it hasn't been done for already...

Ah even rolf might accept that
(But if you act like Louis 16 then I am pretty sure that he still is happy with a French revolution :-D )

This, unless I misunderstand it, represents what I am calling mischaracterization and lame straw man argument, which you brought into this thread against my statements over a week ago.

So, instead of broadly criticizing me and alluding to f yourself types of transgression, take it a point at a time, without the attempt at translating ahead of time.

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rolf
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 16 Apr 2013, 22:38

The best thing for Mandriva would be that all hands worked on the distro - My opinion. The best thing for Mandriva is that provind is not working on Mandriva and basically shuts up - your opinion - shared by the association.


The association, as a body and as what I've seen of its leaders is not so abrupt as I. I think everyone, including myself, would have Per cooperating and continuing to work within the "Manifest" of OMA. I put this before you already just today:
As I have said to one of you some month ago, I see only one issue which
concerns the community and not the company: the community must provide
quickly one or several concrete projects for managing itself and without
waiting for company management bullshit. With such concrete project, if
the company refuse to give the key (build system, mandriva.org
domain, ...) to one of these project, _only then_ contributors can leave
the ship without regret. So, I think proposal should include:
- an organization (who represent what, how decisions are taken, like
every other organization: Debian, LibreOffice, Mozilla, etc)
- a long term vision and a Vision for the community (= a Manifest)
- how the project can federate the today sparsed sub-community of
Mandriva
- any other ?


and that was written one year ago. That's what I support. That is what has been, largely, achieved, in the past year. It is that achievement that Per rejects and has done, repeatedly. I don't speak for the association. It just looks to me that cooperation will not be forthcoming from Per. If I'm wrong about that, so much the better. Such remains to be seen.

Woodguy2
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby Woodguy2 » 16 Apr 2013, 23:03

The question of hard work is only part of the issue. If the "hard work" goes against "the powers that be" in most companies, organizations, or what have you, firing(termination) is usually the result. Denying the organisations right to do so doesn't usually prevent that.

If all you want is a distro at any cost, let Per do his thing with no community.

If you want community involvement, organization, and a true community project, let the Association do what they were set up to do. Will they be right 100% of the time? NO! Will I agree with every decision they make? NO! Will they come up with a worthwhile distro? Remains to be seen. But it seems to me the alternative is a 1 man despot controlled project... no matter how good or bad that may turn out.

By the way...
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&c ... =0CM4BELYD

...You did ask! :dance:
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

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viking60
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 16 Apr 2013, 23:10

Image I sure did:
Image
Manjaro 64bit on the main box -Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz and nVidia Corporation GT200b [GeForce GTX 275] (rev a1. + Centos on the server - Arch on the laptop.
"There are no stupid questions - Only stupid answers!"


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