OpenMandriva

Well it is a family: Mandriva Mageia ROSA Unity PCLOS. Brothers and sisters living together in perfect harmony - so it deserved som space of its own.

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rolf
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 05 Apr 2013, 14:50

I didn't see where Charles denied use of OpenMandriva for the distro, if that's what you're asking. AFAICT the name of the distro from OMA hasn't been decided and use of OpenMandriva in the build system is only a placeholder, until the name is decided:

bero wrote:There has been no decision on the naming.

While there have been some actions that could be interpreted as such, the
final naming decision is still open.

Basically, one developer changed all the branding to Moondrake and pushed out
a release. The council disagrees because there have been strong objections
from one side, so it was changed to say OpenMandriva (which is the
association's name and not necessarily the distribution's name) along with an
option to enable the Moondrake naming patch so Moondrake can move on as a
separate-but-related project while still using the same source.
There are strong objections to using OpenMandriva as the distro name from
another side, but it seems consistent as an interim name.

In the end, there's a pretty good chance that neither of those names will be
used in the longer term (though both are on the table at least theoretically,
and it's entirely possible that both will be used).

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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby jkerr82508 » 05 Apr 2013, 15:45

rolf wrote:the tweet heads and magazine readers who prefer to flood the forum with one FUD-picking conjecture after another and clever little fantasies

I'm not sure what a "tweet head" is and I rarely read magazines. So I've reluctantly concluded that, on this occasion, I'm not included as a target of rolf's disapproval.
:berserkf

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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby Woodguy2 » 05 Apr 2013, 15:50

First, from what I see the pre-beta was pushed branded as Mandriva 2013!

Second, If a name for the Distro can't be decided in 9 months, that doesn't bode well for really tough decisions.

3rd, if the Association wasn't formed to do this kind of "governance"(ie naming and overseeing development of the distro), what was it created for?

4th, from what I know POK never intended to create his own fork, but unilaterally making these decisions doesn't help his cause. Though I agree that it's time some of these issues were settled!

5th, If the best way to move forward, is to create 2 separate distros and try to share developers, that is indeed a sad state of affairs, Ya really think that will get rid of the arguments? puhleeese! A house divided...

I had been a Mandriva user since 2008, but until this all gets sorted and there is actually a current distro to use, I am sticking with Fedora(just can't except the magic theme of Mageia!) I am watching, waiting, and hopeful that this will be settled, as I still prefer Mandriva
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 05 Apr 2013, 16:14

hear hear :s
Well put.
jkerr82508 wrote:
rolf wrote:the tweet heads and magazine readers who prefer to flood the forum with one FUD-picking conjecture after another and clever little fantasies

I'm not sure what a "tweet head" is and I rarely read magazines. So I've reluctantly concluded that, on this occasion, I'm not included as a target of rolf's disapproval.
:berserkf

Jim


What? Did he miss you this time? :shock: His Berserk skills must be fading :lol:

By all respect of the "know it alls" and "read it alls" I believe that all interested should be allowed to form an opinion - more or less qualified.
Disagreement i a fine art not mastered by all. And even when I read carefully between the lines of rolf's posts I detect I slight disagreement with those who (wrongfully of course +1 :pray: ) might think that proyvind has a point.
They simply cannot have read it all...
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 05 Apr 2013, 17:39

Second, If a name for the Distro can't be decided in 9 months, that doesn't bode well for really tough decisions.


Since the beginning of that period, I haven't held any expectations. The success of this operation has always been and still remains something to be seen, for me. For example, starting from scratch, WRT the legal entity, the association, a small number of earnest and relatively selfless volunteers have contributed their time, coordinating internationally over the internet with a couple of paid corporate parties, i.e. Charles Schulz and Kate Lebedeff, to make something of nothing. Along with the necessarily slow, deliberate pace of this development, there have been delays involving when Mandriva SA has been able to do their parts. Currently, I work with Rosa 2012 and continue to watch. We all have choices.

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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 06 Apr 2013, 09:34

ROSA is actually a good and working alternative for those who liked Mandriva +1 I would try that before jumping to Fedora (which also is good).
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby AleQ » 07 Apr 2013, 09:50

- I was thinking of making a call Community :s

- To require Mandriva SA that allows to use the name Mandriva, the distro

- The Mandriva distro should continue calling

- Openmandriva is rubbish

- I'm tired in the war: Openmandriva. Moondrake :berserkf

- The community united is stronger

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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 07 Apr 2013, 11:58

Welcome AleQ :greetings
Yeah I would also rather see all that energy spent on finishing the distro.
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 07 Apr 2013, 16:02

Mandriva SA, the corporation, owns rights to the name, Mandriva. This corporation is a commercial concern and does not want there to be "brand confusion" about the product it develops and sells. Accordingly, it has licensed the association to use only Openmandriva, if it cares to use a word containing Mandriva, at all.

OpenMandriva has been established, by polling the community, as the name of the legal entity that needed to be created. This was needed in order for Mandriva SA to transfer certain licenses and properties to a new community fork of this distribution that began as Mandrake. That is not a sensible thing to argue about, now.

Foundation name : OpenMandriva wrote: Posted on 15 octobre 2012 by JCVanier

Hello to all,

Finally, the name of the foundation is now fixed : OpenMandriva.
That matches both :

- the result of the poll done
- and the wish of Mdv SA

Thus, the parentage remains clear for everyone.

Please, notice that is only the name of the foundation.
The name of the distribution itself is still to be determined.

That’s an important achievement that allows us to move towards the
formalization of the legal status of the foundation.

Yes, we are still moving on !

Jcl Vanier & João Patrício


The name of the distribution is another matter, not yet decided. All the waste of energy is not a matter of coming to an agreement about a name. It's not a matter of artwork, as has been widely spread by/to the casually interested as FUD to discredit the necessary legal entity, OpenMandriva Association.

gmoro wrote:Hi all,

Just a piece of my point of view.

I saw a lot of discussions going on, and I see a lot of useless discussion all around.
Let's use the well known analogy of Parkinson's law of triviality ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson ... triviality ), no one looks interested( besides some few developers that like more to work than discuss trivialities) in the big picture of discussing what is the process for the DEVELOPMENT of the distro, which is huge legacy of code that we need to shape up, but people start to fight over trivial things like the name (I know its not so trivial, but you got the point). To summarize for the ones that don't know the Parkinson's law, "The time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse proportion to the sum involved." ( as sum here, understand the total value of the code itself).
The name is a trivial discussion that should be less aggressive and passionate, as its relevance technically speaking is almost null.
Let's say there's no agreement, so what is the problem of choosing OpenMandriva or Moondrake, or whatever, is just a single commit of 5 lines that can change this, and we keep working, if in the future we feel that OpenMandriva is not catching up, we can change again, make a new spin that is going to be more popular, or infinite other ways to avoid the name problem. For a example, Matthew from Unity Linux has used the same repositories for quite some time now, we can have 5 different distros using the same repository in a matter of few months.
But there are people in both sides that want to keep discussing trying to reach some kind of major agreement as of we are some kind of national democracy, it's not the case, we are more than a democracy, we are really FREE, we can do what we want, and no one needs to change the others mind about it, or accept the decision as a loss.
We have much in common, and if there's a disagreement in the name, is just a small issue if we think how much of technical view we share with each other.

So what I'm asking here is, please people that still believe in the technical view we share, stick together, we are going to solve this non-issues soon enough, and we still have or beloved code base to keep going and perhaps, in some near feature, shape up as we want to make a lovely Distribution.

And for the others, that like and feed the nonsense, non-technical discussions, please, stop and think if what you are trying to push as an agenda is really important and what not relevant to have a good distribution.

So, engineers, please step up and let's work. :)

Regards,

Guilherme Moro


As I see it, basically, one major developer, POK, has declined to participate in the process of creating the association, still a work in progress, and refuses to recognize its legitimacy, refuses to cooperate. The association cannot go forward with such a destructive, disruptive major influence in action. OMA is dealing with it, protecting itself while providing that Per remains able to do what he wants, without harming others. Part of the job of such an association is to develop fair, clear rules of conduct and see that they are followed. A lot of work has been done since last June, mostly by volunteers, to create the necessary legal entity, to see if this branch can actually happen. That work is not finished, is not perfect, but, from my observations, has been well-intentioned and capable, on balance. There is room for improvement and acknowledgment that there is still a ways to go. Something that angers me is how that work is so easily dismissed and discredited by those who would disrupt the process and those who have little idea of the course of events.

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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 07 Apr 2013, 17:42

Thanks for the info!
I pretty much agree with everything gmoro wrote.
Regarding the necessity of that foundation and the amount of work that has been put into it - well... that is not working with the distro which is the most important thing IMHO.
If it is called something not containing Mandriva I do not see the necessity for that association.
(Good to hold the option open though...) If I am wrong I am sure you will explain it. But ALL the legitimacy of that association is connected to the name and the artwork if I have got this right, at least the part that is necessary.

So I have a really hard time understanding this:
The name of the distribution is another matter, not yet decided. All the waste of energy is not a matter of coming to an agreement about a name. It's not a matter of artwork, as has been widely spread by/to the casually interested as FUD to discredit the necessary legal entity, OpenMandriva Associatio

It is only necessary because of the artwork/branding and the name -right?

Distros are forked without associations every day are they not? Is that not the point of of the license - it can be forked by anyone? My contributions to Mandriva were given on those premises. Anyone can use the data without any blessing from me or Mandriva - they are already blessed by the nature of FOSS.

So all this hard work is mostly because of trademark and the name (I can clearly see the legal issue there). And again I agree with gmoro: that is a storm in a glass of water so I am not going to loose any more calories over it.
:S I don't care what it is called as long as it gets out! That must be the top priority. And if it gets out faster if it is not called something with Mandriva in it, then I am all for it.
Macdriva Ben-Dover whatever....

Regarding the association protecting itself against Per Øyvind I mostly agree with you. I don't think proyvind recognizes them and therefore it would be unnatural for him to be on the council with the people he does not recognize.

Code: Select all

Something that angers me is how that work is so easily dismissed and discredited by those who would disrupt the process and those who have little idea of the course of events.

Don't be angered! A: because you have a really foul Berserk temper and B: because that would imply that only you can express your views.

All others must accept your definition of "disrupting" and "little idea" - well if they want to avoid your fury that is....
It translates: Stupid people are not allowed to speak - only the Mandriva Arians. (And since proyvind falls in under the "disruptive" definition that leaves you :-D )

Going to put my helmet on now.... :berserkf

It could also be viewed like this: That council did in no way respect proyvinds much harder work over several years with Mandriva and called him insane.

Now there is a reason to be angered
We need pro-activity rather than re-activity and that means having initiative and even step on some toes sometimes (not as a principle, but because it cannot be avoided)

The necessary work is done in cooker. What bothers (angers) me is if that work is disrupted :berserk2

I hope they all can work there in harmony and resolve the naming and association business afterwords. I will not even bother to log in on yet another new and fancy place to vote an accept whatever name - as long as it is Macdriva.....
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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby rolf » 07 Apr 2013, 18:32

It is only necessary because of the artwork/branding and the name -right?


No. Why do I have to keep saying the same thing? The OMA was formed in compliance with French law in order to receive license and assistance from Mandriva SA. From the last of my posts, which you quoted without reading fully, apparently:

Finally, the name of the foundation is now fixed : OpenMandriva.
That matches both :

- the result of the poll done
- and the wish of Mdv SA

Thus, the parentage remains clear for everyone.

Please, notice that is only the name of the foundation.
The name of the distribution itself is still to be determined.

That’s an important achievement that allows us to move towards the
formalization of the legal status of the foundation.

http://blog.mandrivalinux.org/2012/10/f ... nmandriva/

http://blog.mandrivalinux.org/2012/07/ <--- :f God damn it, read the blog history and talk to me about something that actually happened, not what you guess might have happened. I'm not right about every point, of course, but I'm sick of talking about nonsense.

You, Per, anyone can take FOSS and do anything they want, respecting the RULES of the licensing and laws to which it's subject. Rules are an inescapable part of mostly everything. Look at Mageia. It has its governance and legal requirements, followed and administered by more than developers. The non-code-writing-development of virtually any distribution is more than labels and artwork, although that is a necessary part, and it is vital. I asked you before to show me one relevant distribution that is produced by only one individual and you ignored that. Show me a significant distribution where there are not many respected contributors with a voice who do not code. Why is that so difficult to accept? Go ahead and make your own distro. The distro of any consequence on an international level will not be put out by one person, however.

It could also be viewed like this: That council did in no way respect proyvinds much harder work over several years with Mandriva and called him insane.


Anything is possible. What I've seen is all of this happening in public, on the mailing list and blogs, etc. Anyone who was interested could follow and participate. Naturally, developers were included. Now, those who had no interest and did not participate are spouting just so much uninformed noise. I've posted Kate's reaction to some of Per's statements in this thread, for just one example. Look for it. Although there is a possibility that Per is an innocent victim of a hidden agenda, conspiracy, paranoic's view of events, I think there is evidence of the larger part of the association slowly coming to the decision that Per has no intention of cooperating, of following the RULES, of proceeding in the mature fashion. The "insane" comment came very recently, after a long history of evidence. If you are worried about slander, it would also be a slander for Perens to claim a contributor said something he didn't, to bolster his hastily-formed opinions coming in late to the story. I brought that up in this thread, also, look for it. Per simply said it's irrelevant whether or not he said it. The point is, one of the hardest working volunteers since last June resigned because of this disruption, opposition to the association, and slanderous attacks. I've a right to be angry about such baseless destruction of community. It has exactly 0 implication that only I am entitled to an opinion, more bullshit. :f

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Re: OpenMandriva

Postby viking60 » 07 Apr 2013, 20:39

:-D
This actually happened:
The name of the Foundation was a top down decision.
Obviously, it means that we’re listening to the community, but it’s also clear that at the end of the process, the name does not get picked by the community. I realize this might frustrate some people; but I urge them to consider that so far we failed to come up with a process that would satisfy everyone, let alone effectively work.

Per Øyvind was criticized for his activity on the distro (not the lack thereof) putting a name in 5 places -without calling a meeting first.
I can live with that.

The association was according to you necessary to get assistance and license (for the name obviously) from Mandriva SA - semantics!

Nothing would have happened without the aid and cooperation from Mandriva SA anyway.

We are all practicing the art of Archeology while we do not have a distro.

Part of the problem is that all parties seem to claim to represent a non existent community; so claiming the democratic highground is ...propaganda.
But there are regular updates on cooker so things are moving forward.
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